Matt Fish

On the surface, Matt Fish is probably exactly what you would expect from a cellist.  Tall and lanky with glasses, he fits the image perfectly.  But, as soon as he gets on stage, his witty personality takes over as the rhythm hits and he breaks all the cellist stereotypes.  Whether it's rockin' out to Bon Jovi's "Livin' on a Prayer" or Prince's "Starfish and Coffee," Fish shows that the cello has a place in rock music.  After touring with singer/songwriter Matt Nathanson for close to two years, Fish is now taking a break from touring to focus on film composing and his upcoming wedding.  Way Cool Music had a chance to sit down with Fish in Northampton, MA to discuss being a classically trained cellist in the pop music world, constant touring, and his life away from music.

Way Cool: 

Can you describe for us just a little bit what it was like growing up in small town Iowa, as the son of a minister, and cello player? What was that like?

Matt Fish:

WC:

So, along the years since you got out of school, you've done a lot of work with a lot of different artists:  Matt Nathanson, David Hopkins, Noe Veneble.  Can you describe for us what it's like to get 'the call' that someone wants you to work with them? What's the songwriting process for you in working with those different artists?

MF:

Usually the songwriting process is done.  Getting the call to go on tour or do a gig, is always really fun, or (to do a) session, they're totally differing things.  Probably the most memorable one was getting the call to do the Alejandro (Escevedo) tour, because I had never met Alejandro and I had just recently been in contact with his previous cellist who still plays with him a lot, Brian Sandford, who's just this great guy.  He and I had been emailing each other, through Blu (Sanders) actually, because Blu lived in Austin and played with Brian.  And so he said, "You should meet Brian" and he hooked us up with email addresses.  So, I had been in touch with him.  Somehow this world sort of came together and literally within a few weeks, I think it was, maybe a month or so, Alejandro gave me a call.  Well, I got a call from actually a bassist in San Francisco who Alejandro was having help look for a cellist.  So, anyway, it was just the most exciting thing!  The reason that was so exciting was that we didn't know each other.  We weren't friends ahead of time so I felt very, very professional like someone heard of me from Austin, Texas and looked me up through contacts in LA and that felt pretty kick ass.  And everyone else had been friends locally.  I played in a band in San Francisco and it was with a friend of mine, and he was my roommate as well, who has gone on to be a film director.  In that band, we would open for Matt and Matt would open for us in San Francisco, so it was sort of a no-brainer.  You would do that sort of stuff, especially in such a small (music) scene.  It was just friends.  David Hopkins is the same way, Noe Veneble is the exact same way.  I mean, that was the venue.  She opened for us sometimes and vice versa.  There were just a few people in the San Francisco music scene at the time.  It wasn't a really vibrant scene, it was just who ever was there was gonna make it happen.  You could tell who was going to make it and rise above.  David Hopkins, Matt Nathanson, and Noe Veneble are all among those people.  And there are people who we played with who are still playing the exact same cafes, the exact same open mic nights on Wednesday nights, and the exact same songs.

WC:

You've played with so many different people and Alejandro's show is so much different than playing with Matt.  How do you prepare for such very different styles of music as well as the actual show itself?

MF:

That's a really, really, really good question.   It's all about...  I don't have any idea.  Let's see.  (Recently) I played with Erin McKeown and... uh... it's really about getting into their records and into their personality through their records.  That's the main thing.  That's why previously I was saying I played with friends and so hanging out with people, getting to know them, get to know their style of playing and you can see them play on their own as well.  It becomes almost second nature because you know the kind of style, so it's really just a matter of being sensitive to that, which I am because that's really who I am, like Mr. Sensitive.  And it's sort of a detriment a lot of times, like when I have a panic attack or something, but it's also very, very helpful to back people up and be a side musician.  That sort of sensitivity is simply a matter... it's just like having a conversation with someone.  You're going to have a different conversation with your mom than you would with your friend than you would with your boss.  Or than you would with different friends.  And that's really what it is.  It's not any preparation that you can do on the cello.  There's no technical things you can do there, besides learn their songs, of course, like the chords and stuff.

WC:

Along those lines, do you have someone who you think, "I so want to work with them!"  Who's the aspiration of who your dream collaborator would be?

WC:

Would you put a cello part in a song when you're hearing it?

MF:

Normally no, and I actually need to do that more.  There is cellist named Jane Scarpantoni and she really toured with the Indigo Girls.  Matt Brubeck just did a couple of shows.  She also went on tour with Lou Reed recently and I saw her.  I went to the show just to see her and she just blew me (away), so... there's a couple of things:  Lou Reed, add to that list for sure.  Elvis Costello as well.  There are times when I've heard a cello solo and it's when Jane Scarpantoni is playing on "10,000 Curfews," the live double record.  They did a cover of this other song, I can't remember the title, but she had a cello solo in the middle of it and I just had to learn that.  It comes up so rarely and it's actually sort of a problem.  So I end up learning guitar solos.  It's like in that Prince song, "Never Take the Place of Your Man," it's like trying to do a Prince guitar solo.  So then you're like "Why don't I fucking play the guitar?"  There are so few cello solos that you're like "Oh my god!  That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard" So I did that with Cello Song, Nick Drake as well, to learn that line.  So anytime a cello is featured, I'll do that, but it's very rare.  Damien Rice, I haven't done that yet, it's still to be done, because the cello is so featured on that record.  So many times the cello is mixed down on records.  Jane Scarpantoni has played on everyone's record.  The Beastie Boys, Nirvana, she was on it I think, I mean literally almost everyone, especially East Coast people she was on, and you just don't hear it.  You know the Beastie Boys record, you open it up and are like, "There's no way!"

WC:

Why is that?  Why do they bother to have you?  Does it do something to the dynamics in the room when you're playing it and it just doesn't translate to sound engineer?

MF:

I think because... Well there's a group called Rasputina that has 3 cellos and that's the signature sound, but cellos, I don't know... I think it's a matter of people being like "Oh my god!  We don't know what this is and we have to get it out.  We have to have bass, drums, and guitar, and sometimes keyboard and singing because it's very sort of..."  I mean songwriting is very sort of conservative art form in a lot of ways.  There's originality but it's all formula.  And then you get through the lyrics and everything, but the sounds, that's not where the experimentation comes from really.  People really don't feel comfortable doing that kind of thing.  Pop artists aren't about pushing the envelope in terms of a weird sound, you know?  So it's more like jazz or avant garde or new classical or even new age that you'll start to get some of that stuff that's more featured.  Or the odd ballad or the Damien Rice.  But even Matt, we've been touring for 2 years and we played together before that and so any live thing that we would do I would think it would open people's eyes as to what the cello can do because it's always more rock than just always in the ballads, which is... The studio records, with the exception of 'First Time' on Ernst, it's not about the cello.  It's never really about the cello.  New Coats and New Hats as well, that's cello and piano.  That's David Hopkins.  It frustrates me, to tell you the truth, that aspect of having the cello always mixed down.  It's like, "Why even have you there?"

Strings and rock is really the problem.  It's like the good news and the bad news because it's never been a rockin' string.  And so one of my goals, since I was a kid actually, was to bring the cello into rock because I loved rock and I was stuck playing the cello, so I was like "I gotta make this work."   Why the hell shouldn't you hear cello on a rock album?  What's wrong with that?  What about those kids playing string instruments and that sort of stuff?  I think about them first because I was one of them; I felt limited and thought I had to learn to play the guitar.  And one day I just said, "There's got to be another way.  I don't have to play the guitar or the bass."  Because, frankly, everyone and their dog plays those, do you know what I'm saying?  Why shouldn't cello be more featured in rock.  Listen to Yo Yo Ma, he's the best musician out there in some ways and he doesn't have any balls.  He doesn't play with... He plays with his heart, absolutely, he plays technically perfectly, but can he rock?

WC:

In touring with Matt (Nathanson), we remember seeing you in late 2002.  At first he introduced you and it was great; you added to the show, but now people are professing their love to you and it has really grown.  Did you ever think that it would come to this?  Is it a total surprise?

MF:

Honestly, it's both.  It's very, very surprising because I didn't think the response would be like it is.  And it's also surprising because I feel that I've gotten better than I thought I would get.  So that's actually a really pleasant surprise.  So I think people are responding to something that moves them emotionally.  And I think that's a result of trying to get better at your instrument.  I thought I had reached a plateau and I have sometimes exceeded that and that's been a surprise as well.  So that sort of outpouring of approval and love and all that sort of stuff... I don't know if it surpri... Yeah, the amount of it is surprising.  But the part that's not surprising is that I've always known that it was something I was good at.  It's just a thing.  You pick it up and you have a knack for it.  I mean you don't notice.  But other people hear you and say, 'Oh, you have a knack." "That guy's cool!"  And you see people sort of watching what you're doing.  And you're at a jam session, for example, you see people come into the room and they watch what you're doing and you have no idea why they are watching you versus the other 6 guitarists you're playing with.  You start to learn these things at an early age.  Plus, I practiced being in rock bands when I was a little kid.  I was in a couple of air bands called the Chipmunks and we made fake wooden basses.  I was the bass player and lead singer and my brother was the drummer and my best friend, Danny Carey, was the guitar player, you know, and I was, like 7 or something.  And so, I put on the big shades and we'd do Eagles songs and some Bee Gees as well.

WC:

So when you picked up the cello, it was never intended to just be a classical instrument to you?  It was the instrument to make the music you wanted?

MF:

No, it was always supposed to be just classical.    I started the piano first, the guitar next, and then the cello for real in the 4th grade when I was 10.  That was the first time I had formal lessons... no, I had piano lessons, but it was the first time I really had continuity in terms of lessons.  And then I got into more and more rock, but I always played the guitar, so there was that disconnect again.  The world of rock... I was playing guitar and was like (plays air guitar) and then I'd pick up the cello and was like, "Damn, I'm so much better at the cello.  This sucks!"  I wanted to just be able to do what I wanted to do and I thought I had to do it on guitar because I wanted to be in bands, but I was better at the cello.  Then one day, I had a vision.  I'm not making it up.  I was in Dubuque, IA on Highway 52 turning left onto Grandview, right?  I forget the exact date, but it was in wintertime.  I know it was in the winter; it was bleak there, all gray and everything, like Chicago, and there was some snow.  I was in the left turn lane and I was driving our Buick Century shit brown station wagon and it came together.  That was the moment because I saw it.  I saw the electric cello, in my head for the first time.  I had never seen it in real life.  Believe it or not; you see them now, it didn't exist.  I had to practically invent the thing.  I had to use a bass pick-up for the first time on my acoustic cello.  But I saw a true 100% electric cello.  It was like an electric guitar and cello combined.  It's a pretty obvious idea when you think of it, but it didn't exist.  So that was the vision where those two paths finally came together and I said "Ah Ha!"  And it took me years to finally get the right electric cello sound.  Years, from that point.  I saw the neck and I was sitting there and it appeared.  I was sitting in the car and I saw down the neck and I saw other strings and it was all black and shiny like an electric guitar and it was fast action.  It was really fast and it was all the neck of the cello but a weird body.  I was still bowing and all of that and it was plugged into an amp.  Yeah, that was that.

WC:

What are some of the biggest changes have you noticed in the past two years touring with Matt with your vantage point behind the cello?

MF:

WC:

So, between you two, the communication is better.

MF:

Yeah, the communication and we're playing more tightly together and that's such a joy.  That's a huge thing because that's really what a band is about.  It's like breathing together and moving as a unit and they just know what's going to happen next.  It's funny because even if there's any sort of tension or frustration or something that day, in general or between us, which there usually isn't, but if there is, it just washes out on stage.  It just really doesn't matter because there's nothing like both people having the goal of having the best show possible. And everything else is really secondary to that, so, you know, it's... most of the time.

WC:

OK.  So, what is the difference for you guys when it's a seated show versus a standing show?  From our standpoint, when we're standing up, we're more involved in the show, we're closer to the stage, we can feel the energy better.  But for you guys, from the stage, what's it like?

MF:

Yeah, I have a lot more fun at the big rock shows where people are standing up.  Back in the day, years ago, you're playing coffee houses and stuff and everyone was doing the cappuccino machines, or the espresso machines... (Makes coffee bean grinding noise)  "Mark!  Your latte is up!"  You know, and it sounds fucking cool on the Wilco record, but nowhere else.  With classical music, everyone shuts up and listens.  So, you're one goal (as a cellist) is to just to get people to fucking listen.  So you're like, "Can you please just shut up and listen!  No one talk or anything!"  So, then you get the seated situations and then you think, "Well, this is the best because finally we have good sound and people are paying attention" and that sort of stuff.  But then you get into it a little bit more and realize that rock isn't about that and you get past it.  But it's great because people are paying attention and yelling, but it's for you.  So there's more visceral energy.  That's really the only way to describe it.  I mean, the cliche about the crowd being a part of the band and influencing the band is so absolutely true.  It's not even a cliche.  That sort of yelling and screaming and energy is so much more exciting and once you do that, you can never go back.  And so... exactly what you were saying.  It's more interesting for you to be a part of that crowd as well.  Maybe it feels more interactive, or maybe it's just more energetic...  And with listening room(s) with such a... you're not supposed to yell and scream when you have dinner on the table.  And so people aren't yelling at the same places and you think you're doing something wrong, you know.  I play a solo and, you know... maybe 'Answering Machine' and I'm ending and people are sort of, you know, the golf clap or whatever.  And you're like, "I don't really dig this!  I wanna fucking rock!"  So once you pass through the coffee shop phase to finally you get people to listen phase and into the... you're like "You know what, this is way, way more fun when there are hundreds of people screaming and chanting and fucking singing along."  That just feels fucking great.

WC:

So how far into a set do you know it's going to be a good show for you guys?

MF:

That's a great question!  Matt always... very often we will have very different nights, which really sort of contradicts the communication answer I gave a little while ago.  And that's really a wacky thing.  Although, I can always understand what he means, I often don't share that.  It seems like he might have more worse shows.  But see, we played (a college show) recently, and it was in a fucking cafeteria and the sound was hideous and we're on a 6-inch stage and people are looking at us like (blank stare) the whole time.  And they're eating their fries when they're doing it.  And there's a big TV behind us, one of those projector TVs, the cheesy kind.  And Matt was like, "That's the best show on the tour so far!"  And I thought it was crap and so did Jeremy (the tour manager) and so did Kevin (the sound guy) and we're like, "Are you high dude?  What are you talking about?"  But, for some reason he loved it.  So, I can't explain that portion of it.  I think it's reverse psychology.  He's just trying to do that to say, "I like the really small shows.  And I don't like the high-pressure shows."  Trying to be cool, by trying to not be cool.  So I think he's trying to do reverse psychology there.  It's when you start to be able to think about it... It's like in sex when you're like, "What should I do next?"  And you're ruined!  You know what I mean?

WC:

Should I do Move A or Move B?

MF:

Yes!  Exactly!  You're like, "How should I move my tongue?  This way or that way?"  No.  And then you're bored.  And it's not so much boredom; it's just a lack of energy and it just happens.  There's nothing you can do.  You're not in the moment.  But (if), we played 'Lucky Boy' and 'Wings' after Matt opened with something, it was great.  But the problem was that it was too great.  It was too much energy.  It was too powerful in the beginning and where do you go?  And then we go downhill.  The other thing that makes a huge difference is... Well there are a bazillion factors, but monitors and different crowd energy are just pretty much it.  I mean, we can do just about anything with a great crowd and amazing monitors.  It just doesn't matter, it doesn't matter how tired we might be, or what kind of mood we might be in.  Those two things will fix it.